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Dr. David Pritchard is a scientist at MIT in Cambridge and co-chair of the Abduction

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Study Conference held at MIT.

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He joins us from WBUR in Boston.

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Welcome to the program.

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How are you?

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How are you?

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CDB Brian is a journalist in Guilford, Connecticut and author of Close Encounters of the Fourth

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Kind, Alien Abduction, UFOs and the Conference at MIT, published by Knopf.

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And we'll be here with you in this video this afternoon.

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Welcome to the program.

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Nice to be here and hello, Dave.

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Hi, Corey.

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Also, John Carpenter is with us.

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John Carpenter is a hypnotherapist and licensed clinical photo worker in Springfield, Missouri.

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And he joined us by phone from his office.

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Welcome to the program.

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Good afternoon, gentlemen.

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Good afternoon to you.

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Let me begin by asking you, David Pritchard, why did you help organize this conference

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with John Mett?

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Probably it was even more my idea than his.

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But basically I had gotten interested in this phenomenon, namely the people making these

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crazy, bizarre, I guess the better word, reports.

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And I became aware of a lot of the research that had been done, much of it not published,

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about this phenomenon.

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And I decided to run a conference in which people could come and report their research

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and then other people could discuss it, criticize it, ask questions about it.

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And that's the scientific conference.

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And so that's what we did.

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And so people came and read scientific papers and made presentations.

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Yes.

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Actually, we had 100 presentations.

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Several people made a couple of presentations because we had a very careful overview of

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the phenomenon that was established by the committee of experts in this area.

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And then the people put their various presentations on this outline so the whole thing would be

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coherent.

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Because one of the things we were really trying to do was to make a comprehensible overview

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of this, the proceedings, which is actually published now, it's a book called Alien Discussion,

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and to make that kind of a working collection of the research in this field.

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Now, you're a world-class, tenured, well-respected scientist, people know you around the world.

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You must have received a lot of heat for deciding to do this.

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For a laughing or skepticism or something, what drove you to decide that as a scientist

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that you would like to help sponsor this?

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Well, really, it's what we call, this is curiosity-driven or basic research.

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I just thought this was interesting.

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Now, I'll tell you some of the reasons that I think that I'm maybe predisposed to think

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that.

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First of all, I think it's clear that the existence of other intelligent life in the

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universe is a dynamic scientific issue.

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If we could discover that kind of light, it would be Copernicus Revolutions Part II,

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and I guess if they were here, Part III.

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In fact, we as a culture believe there is other laughing scientists that have set up

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searches, search for extraterrestrial life out there.

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Exactly.

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But the majority of scientists feel, and this view was presented at the conference by Paul

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Horowitz, who's one of the leaders of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence using

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radio.

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They think it's going to be too expensive to come here, for the aliens to come here.

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But I hold with the minority of scientific community that advanced highly technical extraterrestrial

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civilizations could indeed send unmanned baby column on alien probes here.

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In fact, there's been a conference recently last fall at NYU.

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I didn't have anything to do with it.

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But that was for people who wanted to get together and figure out how humans could send

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probes to the nearest star systems to explore any planets that were there.

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So I think it's just a matter of time, maybe a thousand years, maybe a hundred thousand

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years, but technology is rolling on and it's going to get easier and cheaper to send some

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sort of small intelligent thing to elsewhere in the universe.

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Now, Courtney Bryan, you're not a UFO writer.

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You're a very well-known writer, but you've never written about UFOs.

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Not until now.

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But what kind of…you're interested in it.

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I think probably very much what got Dave Pritchard interested in it.

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To me, it was the obvious that serious people like Dave Pritchard and John McHugh, with

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serious credentials, were holding a serious conference at a serious scientific institution

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on the subject which I thought was similar to Mickey Mouse, was new.

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So I went up there as a commission by the New Yorker to cover the conference.

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And I found it as fascinating as all of us have, that you do get sucked in.

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It's an intriguing subject.

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One of the great mysteries.

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Did you find your beliefs changing about the issue back and forth as you were up there?

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I think it's like quicksand.

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The more time I spent at the conference, the more vulnerable I was and I found that my

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skepticism was shifting so that I was getting less and less skeptical about the phenomenon.

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And becoming more and more skeptical about my previous closed mind.

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In fact, reading your book and reading, also reading the proceedings that Dave Pritchard

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has published, really, I describe it as very disturbing.

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It's one of the most disturbing books I have ever read.

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I've read a lot of science books and a lot of philosophy.

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And you come away because it really sticks with what the evidence itself.

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Some people say, in hearing the book talk about that these are not crazy people for

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the most part, that they have past psychological pasts, that they are not nuts.

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The utmost sincerity about what has happened to them really challenges your thoughts about

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what the truth is.

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So I think, as John Mack had said when I interviewed him, he said that the most single powerful

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thing for him was that you were people, otherwise quite ordinary, unremarkable, reporting with

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false sincerity and in the most authentic way, these extraordinary surprises, which they

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didn't want to believe were true.

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So really it was the abductees as much as the scientists who were convincing me.

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John Carpenter, as a clinical social worker and a hippo therapist, you have, I understand,

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talked to 100 or more people claiming to be abducted.

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Is that correct?

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Yes, probably I've talked to 200 in work with about 130 with clinical hypnosis.

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And do you give them a battery of psychological tests to make sure that they are, they have

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their head on straight?

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Well, I have several screening tools and if I feel like I need to do some psychological

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testing, I will.

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But as everyone has stated thus far, these people come across quite normal, incredible

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and basically they're as confused as we are about what's going on, what's happening to

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them.

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So then they come for help, not because they like the experience of communing with aliens

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and want to do it again, but because they don't like it?

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Well, I've never had anyone yet who wanted this experience.

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They may adapt and grow to, I guess, accept it over time, but certainly in the beginning

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nobody comes wanting it or desiring it.

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And according to the book and the proceedings, it appears that these people want to be told

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that they're nuts because if they're told they're crazy, there's no magic pill that

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they could be given, they could be put away, they'll be cured and they won't come back

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having the same feelings again.

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Well, exactly.

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And they're not, and they're told just the opposite, that they're not crazy.

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Yes, and that does bother them to some extent because crazy is more acceptable at this point.

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And then what do you do for these people?

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Well, what we try to do is, first of all, because these experiences have been, in essence,

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locked inside of them, either suppressed, repressed or hypnotically suggested to not

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be remembered as they recall them, as if they're recalling something that has been forgotten

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or a part of them all along, this, as with any repressed material, feels better as it

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comes up and they're able to reintegrate it back into their lives.

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Now, the problem is, it's such a wild thing to become aware of that that does leave them

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in need of support.

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We immediately put them in touch with others who had the experience, not to share intricate

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details, but to just offer support and understanding.

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And eventually then they usually grow and change and develop what we all have come to

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know as a broader view of our own universe.

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As CD Bryan said, it's something that just opens your mind up and then you begin to question

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your former way of looking at things.

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One of the most fascinating parts about the tail being sold by the abductees is that they

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are so similar.

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And they describe, I remember reading in your book, saying that, well, one of the great

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criticisms of the research here is that this could all be coincidental and that there are

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so many people could be just randomly talking about the same kind of event, but it doesn't

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appear to happen anyway.

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They all talk about the same looking alien, same type of experience, same kind of spaceship.

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The same scenarios, the same sequence of events, the same tables, the same imperiors.

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Now, as John Carpenter, why can't this be coincidental?

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Why isn't it just something, if you have a couple of hundred million people in a population

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that maybe a few thousand of them are going to have this sort of similar type of experience?

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Well, there's too many reasons to go into on the air here.

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It would take another hour just to talk about imagination, fantasy, and expectation, but

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in general, imagination doesn't work this way.

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We had a classroom of 30 children drawn alien.

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None of them drew anything alike, and none of them even drew a little bit of a creature.

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Instead, they came up with what you would expect, 30 wonderfully creative imaginative

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drawings.

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Dr. Pritchard, of course, what the mainstream scientific community will say was good reason

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is if we're being visited by aliens, where is the hard physical evidence for it?

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How do you answer that?

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Well, I have to say that I've looked and I haven't found it.

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I've looked in, well, I've kind of talked to the investigators and said, when you get

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a really solid looking piece of physical evidence, I might be interested in investigating.

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I've spent a great deal of effort investigating an artifact that an experiencer alleged was

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an implant.

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If you read the standard scenario, you'll find that implants are often put in the head

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or in the genitals, if it was in the latter place.

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What I considered an artifact with an excellent pedigree, namely, he had evidence that he'd

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been talking about being abducted by aliens even before the Betty and Barney Hill case

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was published.

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He had an eight-year-old note from a doctor that examined this thing underneath his skin

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and said, well, leave it there, but it sort of told how big it was.

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He had a description of seeing a conscious, not hypnotically recovered, very powerful

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memory of the scenario under which this was implanted.

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I mean, he had a description of the artifact before it was put in him.

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So when he finally sort of dislodged it from his skin and brought it to me and it conformed,

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it had the little wires that he talked about, this had what I call appendages, I took it

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on and analyzed it carefully.

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The result of all that analysis was that it is human damaged tissue, white cells and other

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things that flood to a site where maybe you get an ingrown hair or some insult to the

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skin.

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In addition to that, it had captured a lot of clear cotton fibers, which of course could

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have come from his underwear.

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So I came up with what's likely a very prosaic explanation for this artifact.

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And similarly, when I took some MRIs, alleged MRIs of head implants and a couple that were

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presented at the conference to a local radiologist for second opinion, he said, well, this one

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and that one are artifacts of the process.

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This is one of the confusions.

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People will sometimes be told by the doctor, well, that's an artifact and they think, oh,

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that's an alien artifact.

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And the doctor means, well, you know, in MRI, you don't get a picture, you reconstruct it

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from some sort of frequency domain scan and there can be artifacts of that reconstruction

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process.

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And so that's one of them.

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Or he would point out to another one, well, yes, there is something there, but that looks

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like the scarring you get in the nasal passages due to just breathing too much dry air in

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winter.

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So there was no alien artifact, no smoking gun.

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And in my experience, all of the claimed physical artifacts that I have examined, whether I've

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referred, examined carefully, there has been either no explanation that it's anything unusual

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or even in the case of Richard Price alleged implant or more per se explanation.

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I will say there is a tiny bit of evidence in John Carpenter who was involved in that

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for people who had diseases that or medical conditions that cleared up mysteriously and

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that they attributed to alien healing.

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But there's no hard physical evidence.

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Absolutely not.

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Do you argue then that this whole thing is a bunch of nonsense?

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No, I don't argue that.

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What I argue is, you know, you're just going, if you think of the whole problem, you're

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going to be able to catch aliens that are clumsy, leave around obvious pieces of string

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of alien string or alien machinery.

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And if you do a certain level of investigation, you're only going to find ones that are comsier

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than a certain amount.

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We've just gone to a certain level.

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I haven't invested very much time because I can't do this with my regular money or time.

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I do this in my spare time.

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And I've done a quick scan and I haven't found anything.

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But doesn't say if you did a more careful examination, you wouldn't find something there.

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And there was, I think, a horror with the conference.

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He said the evidence is the absence of evidence.

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There's no evidence of absence.

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Right.

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But you're never going to get anybody to spend any real money, any kind of money, Alan,

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that I'm actually trying to find any hard evidence here.

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You're not going to get some private people.

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You're not going to be able to convince NSF to do it.

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That's for sure.

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Let me say something, Arad.

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With my book that has just come out, I've gone around the country talking about the

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subject.

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And what has amazed me is how open people are all the way across from, I mean, from Toronto,

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for I can consider Toronto, far, far, far, far countries at the moment.

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As far as Seattle, San Francisco, East Boston, and so on.

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All over the country, people believe something is going on.

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The script tower did a poll two weeks ago, a month ago saying 50% of the people in this

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country believe in UFOs, believe that there's a government conspiracy.

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Over and over again, when I was interviewed, the people interviewing me were far less

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skeptical about this phenomenon than I am.

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And I don't know why there isn't the kind of necessary funds to program really a scientific

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investigation.

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You point out yourself in the book that Jimmy Carter, before he was elected, said that he

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had seen a UFO and was going to do something about it and it became president, looking

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into it, and then, voila, once he was president, disappeared and the national security had

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disappeared.

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Just disappeared.

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So even the president himself can't get anything going on here.

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John, do you have any estimate of how many people internationally claim to be abducted?

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Well, how widespread is this phenomenon?

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It's easy for me to say thousands because we already have several thousand cases documented.

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I could easily project it.

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It's millions because there's so many people who have mentioned they've had contact for

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stories that haven't officially been researched and yet they come across in the same genuine

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fashion.

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I think you have to remember the reporting phenomenon as well.

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Who feels comfortable reporting?

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What country allows such discussion?

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Russia didn't for the longest time now that it's more open.

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We're getting many more reports out of there, which have just been that on, eventually,

255
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for years.

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All right, let's go to Daniel and San Antonio.

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Hi, Daniel.

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Good afternoon.

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I was a serious UFO investigator in the 70s and 80s.

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I worked with Dr. William K. Hartman in analyzing the photographs for the Colorado study for

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the Air Force.

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I worked with Dr. James McDonald at the University of Arizona on his studies of radar analysis

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of naval cases and so on.

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And I was the first, as far as I know, only PhD level, full-time research that hired two

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UFO research as my profession in the mid-70s.

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My experience is that what we're doing here is a spiritual encounter, not an alien encounter,

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because there's a spiritual component to every one of these encounters.

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That is, the person always comes away with a message of some kind, an alteration of their

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worldview and their alteration of the worldview is an anti-biblical viewpoint.

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And it's always the same, very parallel to, as Mrs. Pearl Lorenzen used to say, it's

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an occult phenomenon.

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But isn't the actual abduction scenario itself very biblical?

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The fiery chariot coming out of the sky, the fire from the sky, the bright light, that

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sort of thing?

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And when our enemy Satan endeavors to do a spiritual encounter, he always tries to

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replicate the things of God.

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I think I get a reply from John Carpenter.

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Well, first of all, in my 130 cases, they don't all come away with a spiritual message.

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In fact, what I've found is a wide range of reactions.

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Some feel victimized, some feel negative, some do have a spiritual reaction, but it's

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not a case of always and certainly out of 130 cases, I probably have about five or six

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to have any kind of a detailed spiritual feeling.

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And also, I just like to tell in that cases like Roswell and other documented crashes

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of UFOs, free of bodies and nuts and bolts type stuff kind of makes me suspect that sure

285
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it can have a spiritual component, but it's kind of difficult to think it's entirely spiritual.

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Right, Daniel, thanks for calling.

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In fact, the Roswell autopsy pictures I've been making around and I was reading on an

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internet page, the UFO internet page, which claimed to be, I take no sides on it, by a

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ufologist who said that those autopsy that have done more to set back, they're so bad,

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they're so phony, so fake, that they've done more to set back the course of people who

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believe in UFOs than anything else, make it look like a joke.

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So, suddenly the body didn't hear what anything anybody has described at MIT.

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Exactly, exactly, it does not look like anything from our research, nor from the Roswell research itself.

294
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Yeah, no one really takes it very seriously.

295
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Let's go to Fred in Madison, right Fred?

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Something's happening out there and I don't know what it is.

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The other documents that have been released to me and other freedom of information act

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researchers show that contrary to public assertions that the subject of UFOs is held

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at the highest level of security.

300
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And it's very suspicious to me that very few documents on the subject of corruption have been released.

301
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What should our public policy be on this?

302
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Who should we report to?

303
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:54,240
World War II, 50 years ago, if we saw unusual aircraft in the sky, it was very clear.

304
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We would know exactly who to go to, who to report it to and what would be done.

305
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Who do we now report sophisticated aerospace craft violating our airspace to?

306
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,240
Okay, is this sort of a rhetorical question?

307
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I got it, would be.

308
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:18,320
A question like the rest of the UFO phenomena has very important legal and public policy issues

309
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,320
that we ignore in favor of tabloid style talk.

310
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And I'd like to do a short follow up after a comment.

311
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We'll see. Okay, we have a minute or two.

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CDB?

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00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,320
Well, I was going to comment that simply if I were the secretary of the Air Force and I couldn't do anything more about

314
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defending our airspace than we're doing now, that I think the government's policies

315
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continue to defend that it's happening, you know, deny that it's happening.

316
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A follow up, Fred?

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Yeah, earlier it was said that there had been no traces of abductions.

318
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And I think that they ought to look into some radiation studies because there are some very good close

319
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encounter of the third kind cases that involve strong radiation that caused injury

320
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,400
or even death to the human people who were there.

321
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,480
Alright, Fred, thanks for calling.

322
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Let me ask you, John, but they're about the people who claim to be abducted.

323
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Are they really, they come to a very painful, are they in a painful situation that they have thought about this

324
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for years and years and years and then suddenly something happens that they now have to see a therapist?

325
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,480
Well, I think, again, it's a reporting phenomenon.

326
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Many of the people I've seen, it happened to them 10, 15, 20, even 40 years ago, but they didn't know who to tell.

327
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And so, like many strange things that happen to people in their lives, they just kind of sit on it

328
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and always puzzle over it.

329
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Now that they understand, make a connection that maybe they're missing hours of time

330
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and they're seeing the strange light, this guy might be related,

331
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or their nightmares now make more sense, they start to explore it

332
00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:01,480
and they have a better idea of who to explore it with professionally and sensibly.

333
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,480
You are, can I say something?

334
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Did all this talk we've had about there being no hard evidence?

335
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We've got to consider that the abductees are evidence.

336
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:17,480
And John Carpenter at MIT, I think, told the best story of a double abduction

337
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in which two women crossing the campus and yet John, to talk about it, I mean, this to me was a thrilling story.

338
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John, you want to tell us?

339
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:34,480
Well, yeah, it's a long story, but in short, two women who knew very little to nothing about UFO research could care less.

340
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We're coming back from a workshop in Colorado, traveling late at night, having a good time,

341
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and luckily they documented every step of the way what they were doing,

342
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:51,480
and they had an hour left to go and they saw a strange light, this guy, before they got to their motel.

343
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They pulled over to get a better look and they were all excited, heart-counting, thrilled that there seemed something very unusual.

344
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And then it was a hundred feet from their car, shining down beams of light to the ground,

345
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and again, they're very excited, but the next thing they know, they're pulling out on the road and traveling on it.

346
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And now they're tired, exhausted, and they still want to really talk to each other,

347
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which is a very strange transition in a few seconds.

348
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Well, it turns out that it took them three hours to travel the one hour on the interstate,

349
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and that made no sense to them, and they were having nightmares and insomnia.

350
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So I worked with both of them independently, and under hypnosis, despite my trick questions and trying to suggest logical answers to them,

351
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they both came up independently with unbelievable tales being floated up to a craft in the sky,

352
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going through the procedure of being taken aboard the ship, one being examined and having something put up for nose,

353
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and the other one being forced to watch.

354
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And what was nice about this is I could compare the two independent stories that came out

355
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and find 43 specific, detailed matching between these accounts.

356
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It goes well beyond chance, well beyond coincidence, well beyond their knowledge of the subject,

357
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and they didn't have any desire to be a part of it to start with.

358
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Of course, skeptics would say, well, you as a hypnotherapist have led the patients on, so of course they came up with the same story.

359
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Well, I'll tell you something. I have deliberately been known for leading my subject on purpose,

360
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to see if they can be led, to see if they are suggestible, but I leave them away from abduction data.

361
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I try to leave them for sensual answers.

362
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For example, you know, we have learned that they often find themselves in a round room on an exam table,

363
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but I will say something like, well, you're in something, you're in some other place now,

364
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,480
what do you see in any of the corners of the room that you're in, which is a normal question.

365
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And they look and look, and then they apologize, and they say, well, I'm sorry, I don't see any corners that appear around rooms.

366
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That's the way I get a lot of information, leading them the wrong way, and they have to correct me with their experience.

367
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,480
I watched Bud Hopkins go through very detailed...

368
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:24,480
Bud is another...

369
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,480
Yes, he's sort of a... I'm going to freeze the movement. He's one of the longest investigations.

370
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:37,480
But I watched him try to lead two little women I wrote about in the book away, what John Gartner was in the corner of the room.

371
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There aren't any corners in the room. What color hair do the beings have? They don't have hair, and they can't get them to break their story,

372
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no matter how hard they try.

373
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I would like to confirm that. I've seen some of John's transcripts, and in fact, he does this fairly often.

374
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I would also like to point out that John is not the only one who has carefully researched these multiple abduction experiences.

375
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,480
I think there are probably now about half a dozen of them that have been done.

376
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Richard Haynes is making a collection and...

377
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A big egg of them.

378
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:26,480
Anyway, their point is this is one of the things that differentiates, in my mind, this phenomenon from some of the other things,

379
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like, for instance, near-death experience.

380
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:36,480
You know, you can show tremendous parallels, and we've had several discussions at the conference about social parallels,

381
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which basically are other collective or similar social phenomenon, like satanic ritual abuse,

382
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:53,480
that seem to be happening to many people in a very similar way, and yet we can't verify objectively that it's happening.

383
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And so, for instance, with near-death experiences, they also have some occasionally transformative aspects,

384
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but they have very similar details for what's going on.

385
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But in the abduction case, you have to explain something that doesn't happen very much in these other ones,

386
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and that is where you have several people who claim to have satanic experiences together.

387
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Sometimes even these people will be researched by independent investigators and then will be introduced, and they will know each other.

388
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And it's difficult to account for this sort of thing with conventional explanations.

389
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,480
And, you know, it brings me back to one of my favorite quotes that you have in the forwarder,

390
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,480
from the front leaf of your book, which I always use all the time, which is the famous Sherlock Holmes quote,

391
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which is, when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

392
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And...

393
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I like that.

394
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:55,480
It's a very famous, it was taken out, written, reading out of the cover in Arthur Conan Doyle's The Sign of Four.

395
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And this seems to be what's happened here, is that, you know, no one has been able to come up with an explanation here,

396
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,480
that when you take away everything else, it scares you in the face.

397
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,480
Yet it flies in the face of everything we know scientifically about how the world works.

398
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,480
John Mack came up with a five basic dimensions of the abduction phenomenon,

399
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:23,480
and all of it, and John Carpenter, Dave Pressure, you, me, we all started as pats and skeptics about this.

400
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,480
And, and said, it can't be true.

401
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:33,480
Dave Pressure is far more scientifically inclined than I am, and I think it's quite a bit more rigorous about it not being true.

402
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,480
But John Carpenter just carried into this, as I understand it, or what he has said, what he's written,

403
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,480
kicking and screaming, looking for any other possible excuse for what these people are saying.

404
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:44,480
That's right.

405
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,480
But nothing tipped, as well as what the abductees are saying.

406
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,480
And the skeptics, the basic dimensions are, they're all saying the same story, basically.

407
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:58,480
The same sequence of events, they describe the beings the same, what happens the same, the medical procedures are the same.

408
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,480
And there's no, there are no folkloric type of things, John, or any other kind of thing.

409
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:04,480
Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that.

410
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,480
I'm glad you mentioned that.

411
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:15,480
Because I've been looking into that even more, and what I've found intriguing is all the little stories of berries, leprosomes,

412
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,480
and prides, and all of the little beings that so many countries have legends of,

413
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,480
they used to borrow people for hours at a time, used to walk through walls,

414
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,480
they used to materialize out of thin air, and you really read from the old stories,

415
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,480
they're just like what people are reporting now.

416
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,480
But they aren't going to call them aliens back then.

417
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,480
They didn't have that language, they didn't have that frame of reference.

418
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:41,480
But it's very interesting.

419
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,480
There's another interesting, I thought it was just, yes, go ahead.

420
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,480
I'm going to interject something here.

421
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:53,480
When I mentioned this to colleagues, I often get the response,

422
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,480
well gee, you don't want to do this unless you know all about, and then the word or phrase changes,

423
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:06,480
but it can be fairy or gnomes or stigmata on the hands of religious believers to explain the scars of people's affluence.

424
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:20,480
For a seance, there is indeed a tremendous amount of similar kinds of experience or stories in other cultures in earlier historic times especially.

425
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,480
And let's face it, none of that is really adequately explained.

426
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,480
It isn't even probably adequately debunked from the point of view of the psychop people

427
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,480
because they weren't around there at the time to really investigate the story carefully.

428
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:40,480
My shtick has always been, you know, here we have right now before us this phenomenon,

429
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,480
the phenomenon of alien abductions.

430
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,480
We also have an old hag phenomenon which people report very similar,

431
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,480
hearing people walk down the hall and jump on their chest while they're asleep, paralyzed at night.

432
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,480
I mean, I really think these things are interesting, but they're here and now.

433
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:05,480
You know, we cannot go back and administer personality inventory tests to steal on witches or their victims,

434
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:14,480
but we can do this kind of research and other kinds of research on the people who report these phenomenon today,

435
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,480
and I would like to see four people do that.

436
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:22,480
And I think also it's important to know that observers tend to see what their time and environment is prepared in the movement.

437
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,480
Just as a matter of point of information, your book has settled the closing counters of the fourth time.

438
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Give me those four kinds of encounters.

439
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,480
Sort of a lightning guide.

440
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:38,480
In the first time, say you were driving across the country at night, you look up in the sky and you see an object that is flying,

441
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,480
that is mechanical, it's not the planet Earth, and it's obviously an undenifined flying object.

442
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:50,480
Second time, it may come close enough that you have some sort of electrical malfunction, your car stops, the headlights glow.

443
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,480
Third time, it is close enough either because it's landed or it's nearby that you see it as occupied.

444
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,480
And in the fourth time, the objects make contact with you.

445
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,480
They take you from your trustful surroundings or if your car is that one of the two unsinkable things.

446
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,480
One interesting phenomenon or occurrence happened that you mentioned in your book, and we were talking about this before,

447
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:20,480
at the turn of the century, that it seems the technology of the spacecraft matches just one step ahead of the technology of that part of the century.

448
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,480
That's right. In 1895, what we had said was they were seeing mystery airships.

449
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:31,480
And it would be another ten years before an airship was capable of doing a round trip seven mile course.

450
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:38,480
But in this case, people all over the country, primarily California and the West and here in New York, were seeing airships with gondolas.

451
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,480
Like Deppelins.

452
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,480
Yes.

453
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,480
And so that would be high tech for that time.

454
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:43,480
Yes.

455
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,480
Whereas a flying saucer is high tech for where we're living now.

456
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,480
In a flaming char, it would have been high tech for a decade.

457
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,480
And how do you explain this?

458
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,480
Why would that...

459
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,480
I mean, is there some clue there to what's going on?

460
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:55,480
Path.

461
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:56,480
Path.

462
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,480
Path.

463
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:58,480
Path on that?

464
00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,480
Path.

465
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,480
Is that covered or any psychological explanation here?

466
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,480
Or why would aliens choose to just say one step ahead?

467
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Well, that's that's for them to answer.

468
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,480
I don't think we should speak for them.

469
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:14,480
All right.

470
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,480
Let's go to the phones of Scott and fellow outdoors.

471
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,480
Hi.

472
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:21,480
Hi.

473
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,480
I think you've covered the area about the parallels to the false memory syndrome.

474
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:33,480
How the virtual reality of the mind can be made to see as real life.

475
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:41,480
My questions initially for your guest comments were, what has blurred the distinction between

476
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:50,480
the virtual reality of the mind and the perceived reality in life and two, this regarding little

477
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,480
gray man, isn't the interpretation of the unknown quote unquote other a strip of human

478
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,480
attribute isn't that the result of gray man?

479
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,480
I bet he has iron with him and legs, but he just has no features or nothing.

480
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,480
You're not just flying a plane with him.

481
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,480
You're going to conference?

482
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:07,480
Yes.

483
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,480
Several comments real quick.

484
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:18,480
First of all, the encounters themselves have correlating evidence.

485
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:24,480
We have many, many cases over 2000 documented with landing traces on the ground.

486
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:30,480
The ground has been dehydrated, health and growth for years, radiation.

487
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,480
We have people with grass and mud in their bed and they don't know how it got there.

488
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:41,480
It's not on their floor, but it's appearing under their sheets on their feet that they've been somewhere.

489
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:48,480
There's lots of things that take it well beyond simply something psychological or fantasy.

490
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:52,480
If it were just psychological, you wouldn't have these things tracked on radar.

491
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,480
You wouldn't have the landing traces, you wouldn't have photos, you wouldn't have the videos, etc.

492
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:05,480
That's what's compelling for me that it's beyond something like a false memory of that nature.

493
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:11,480
Why didn't somebody bring back a souvenir from the station or pick up an ass tray or something like that?

494
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,480
Several people have tried and they usually get caught.

495
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:22,480
They have tried at times, but usually there's not much to pick up.

496
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,480
It's one of the remarkable things that they describe in space ships as being empty.

497
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,480
There are no pictures from home, there's no decoration of any kind.

498
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,480
No bathrooms either.

499
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,480
What picture?

500
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:40,480
I wanted to say one thing about the false memory aspect.

501
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:50,480
In the false memory syndrome, you report something that you and your investigator are reasonably familiar with what you're supposed to report.

502
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,480
You're not going to be charged with child abuse by your uncle or whatever.

503
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,480
There have been a couple of studies done.

504
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:08,480
The two that really come to mind are a Bullard study in 1987, which is called On Soul and Time, and then there's a longer version of it.

505
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:19,480
I think John Miller's paper at the conference, in the Bullard paper, he collected a lot of the stories and he found what to him, and he's a folklore.

506
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,480
He just looked at them from the point of view of folklore without any regard to whether these stories are true or not.

507
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:37,480
He said these stories are unlike normal human tradition in that there are elements of the story that there's no causal reason why A has to come before B, but in fact it does.

508
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:43,480
In particular, the table exam comes before the tour of the ship or the conference.

509
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:50,480
He said in folklore stories there's no reason, and in stories if you go back and read stories of fairies, you will not see this kind of consistency.

510
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:55,480
He found that the people did not report the entrance to the craft.

511
00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:02,480
It would be as if in the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy and her companions were going down the Yellowbrick Road and suddenly they were in audience with Oz.

512
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,480
You miss all the part about Emerald City and the Spires and all that stuff.

513
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,480
It just doesn't make a good story.

514
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,480
It isn't like human oral tradition.

515
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:28,480
The point is that the patterns that he found, nobody, not the individuals expressing these things, not the investigators, knew that this was the pattern they were supposed to report or that they were supposed to leave their investigators into prior to the appearance of his study, and yet what he studied was earlier reports.

516
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,480
That is one, and I'm not saying you are ridiculous.

517
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,480
I'm talking about myself and other people who are fascinated by me.

518
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:43,480
How does one say, I'd love to study more of this, but how do I reconcile it with breaking all the laws of physics I've known about space travel and time and space and things like that?

519
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,480
Well, I struggle with it.

520
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:51,480
First of all, I don't think it's surprising.

521
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,480
I'm not saying these things are easy.

522
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,480
I do not have any beliefs on this issue.

523
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:03,480
The only belief that I have is that it's rather strange and interesting that these people are reporting all these stories, and I'd like to try to get to the bottom.

524
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:14,480
But it certainly isn't impossible that extraterrestrial civilizations can send small things to other planets which then can manufacture bigger things.

525
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,480
I think it can be that you have really good technology.

526
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:29,480
It's easy to send something here, and perhaps the best scientist who made this comment along these lines was Enrico Fermi when he was told about the possibility of extraterrestrial civilizations.

527
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:33,480
He thought a minute and said, well, why aren't they here?

528
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:46,480
What he meant was these other civilizations may well have a one or two billion year lead on them, so that even if they sent out stuff at the speed of chemical rockets, it would have time to get from some other part of the Milky Way to here.

529
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,480
So you can explain that they're here.

530
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,480
I can't explain how they walk through walls.

531
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:59,480
I mean, that just seems totally impossible to me, and it does contradict what I think of as the law of physics.

532
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:07,480
Let me ask you, John Carpenter, as someone who is a therapist and works with lots of people, do you suspect that there are other therapists?

533
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,480
There could be social workers, there could be psychiatrists, anybody?

534
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:21,480
Are encountering more cases of people who claim to have to be abducted, but don't recognize it as an abduction, or at least people feeling that way?

535
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,480
Yes, I have a wonderful example real quick.

536
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:36,480
A psychologist called me from Virginia in the middle of the day in between sessions saying, my God, I read that pamphlet by the Roper organization, and this case I've been working with fits it exactly.

537
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:41,480
I've been trying to give this lady a diagnosis of multiple personality, but it doesn't fit.

538
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,480
She doesn't know what's going on.

539
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,480
I don't know what's going on, but I read the pamphlet, it fits like a glove.

540
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,480
He says, now I know what's going on with her.

541
00:40:48,480 --> 00:41:00,480
Now, that's a good example of either party having any desire or expectation that this is Roper related and getting at a classic case point, and luckily he made the connection in call.

542
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,480
What do you tell the therapist to do?

543
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,480
I tell him I had too much to say over the phone.

544
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,480
I sent him a bunch of papers and helpful suggestions.

545
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:19,480
There is a little chapter in Alien Discussions about what kind of therapy has been used and what the reaction of the abductees to it is.

546
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:27,480
Before we go, Dave Pritchard, what kind of physical evidence, I only have about 10 seconds left here, would make scientists more believing?

547
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,480
Well, I don't want to answer that.

548
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,480
I think people should go out and do research.

549
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,480
I think we found that these people are psychologically normal.

550
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:45,480
We should look at the abductees to see if they have to really understand whether they have cataracts from the ultraviolet, look at the scars, really catalog that.

551
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,480
Are they abuse marks or are they something new?

552
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,480
General overview, we haven't looked at the physical state of the experiences.

553
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:59,480
I think we should go find, we know that this thing has a tremendous hidden incidence in the general population.

554
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:05,480
We should find out how big it really is and whether those people have the same experiences in catalog.

555
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:11,480
I think there is work to be done, physical monitoring, not only of the abductees like Electro and Cardiogram,

556
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:17,480
but you can put a TV up and try to get the picture of the UFO taking someone out of his house.

557
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,480
I don't know, but I don't think we're going to solve this problem in one go.

558
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,480
We are out of time.

559
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,480
I'd like to thank my guest, John Carpenter, the Psychiatric Therapist and Clinical Social Worker in Springfield, Missouri.

560
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,480
Dave Pritchard is a scientist at MIT and co-chair of the 1992 Alien Studies Conference.

561
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,480
MIT and PBB Brian is a journalist and author of Coast and Counties of the Fourth Kind, published by Kanab.

562
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,480
Thank you all for joining me today.